Sept. 12, 2024
The Four Essential Pillars to Setting Boundaries
Welcome back to another insightful episode of "Grandparents Raising Grandchildren." I'm your host, Laura Brazan, and today we're diving into the critical topic of setting boundaries—a fundamental step towards creating a loving and secure environment for grandchildren. Our special guest, Catherine Cleveland, a licensed mental health counselor and author, joins us to share her expertise on boundary-setting.
Catherine will walk us through the essence of her book, "The Four Essential Pillars of Boundary Setting," and explain how understanding personal and family values can lead to effective boundaries and consequences. We'll discuss the emotional challenges that come with maintaining these boundaries, such as guilt, shame, and the fear of conflict, and how grandparents can overcome these hurdles to foster healthier relationships. To learn more about Catherine, her accomplishments, her books and counseling, please visit her website at https://catherinegcleveland.com/
We’ll explore why teaching children about boundaries from a young age is vital for their development, how to adapt these concepts according to their developmental stages, and the importance of incorporating their perspectives. Catherine will also address the role of self-compassion in breaking old habits and forming new, healthier ones, and the incredible power of neuroplasticity at any age.
Whether you're struggling with complex family dynamics or looking to model and instill better habits for the next generation, this episode is packed with practical advice and heartfelt wisdom. So sit back, relax, and join us as we uncover the four essential steps to setting boundaries.
Thank you for tuning into today's episode. It's been a journey of shared stories, insights, and invaluable advice from the heart of a community that knows the beauty and challenges of raising grandchildren. Your presence and engagement mean the world to us and to grandparents everywhere stepping up in ways they never imagined.
Remember, you're not alone on this journey. For more resources, support, and stories, visit our website and follow us on our social media channels. If today's episode moved you, consider sharing it with someone who might find comfort and connection in our shared experiences.
We look forward to bringing more stories and expert advice your way next week. Until then, take care of yourselves and each other.
Liked this episode? Share it and tag us on Facebook @GrandparentsRaisingGrandchilden
Love the show? Leave a review and let us know!
Chapters
00:00 - Creating future change through boundaries and community.
03:23 - Exploring resilience and boundaries in grandparents' lives.
07:21 - Define values, set boundaries, establish clear consequences.
12:17 - Addressing children's unmet need to feel valued.
16:15 - Grandparents struggle with relaying messages from parents.
17:23 - Set boundaries to maintain love and reduce anger.
22:04 - Self-worth enables setting boundaries for better life.
26:34 - Repairing relationships involves acknowledgment and apology.
30:31 - Self-observation leads to conscious personal behavior change.
33:44 - Brains can always learn, regardless of age.
34:52 - Understanding children's behavior helps grandparents model better.
38:51 - Avoiding self causes severe mental health problems.
44:18 - Jessica Wilcox practices filial therapy with families.
46:58 - Finding joy through gratitude, acceptance, and self-care.
48:16 - Strength and hope in raising grandchildren together.
Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:00.839 --> 00:00:08.330
Do you struggle with saying no? Do you often feel guilt or shame when you ask for what you know you deserve?
00:00:08.869 --> 00:00:23.489
If the words people pleaser resonates with you, this episode is for you. In our upcoming episode of grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity, we dive into the challenges of setting healthy boundaries.
00:00:23.989 --> 00:00:46.057
Are you trying to make up for your grandkids tough times with food, toys, or otherworldly pleasures? You may not realize it, but these habits can be passed down, affecting how our grandchildren view love and security. Join us for an eye opening conversation about how establishing boundaries can actually strengthen your relationships.
00:00:46.194 --> 00:01:03.240
Teach your grandchildren that love can flourish in a safe and healthy environment. Don't miss this transformative episode that might just change the way you approach love and connection in your family. Tune in and discover the power of boundaries. I'll see you there.
00:01:07.659 --> 00:01:56.299
Welcome to grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity in this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and triumphs of grandparents raising grandchildren as we navigate the complexities of legal, financial, and emotional emotional support. I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings, and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of childrearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through. The intricate journey of kinship care.
00:01:58.609 --> 00:02:16.550
Well discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you.
00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:27.000
Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored.
00:02:34.379 --> 00:03:07.090
As many of you know, setting boundaries can sometimes feel like a daunting and even overwhelming task. Whether you're trying to ensure a structured environment for your grandchildren or seeking a harmonious balance within your own personal life, boundaries play an essential role. They aren't just a set of rules and limitations. They're fundamentally about creating a safe space where both adults and children can thrive emotionally, mentally, and physically.
00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:51.039
In today's episode, we will explore the intricate dance of setting and maintaining boundaries, understand the importance of relational repair, and delve into the courage it takes to break longstanding intergenerational patterns. We will also discuss the invaluable role of self compassion and persistent practice in fostering real, lasting change. So get comfortable, grab your favorite cup of tea, and let's embark on this journey together to discover wisdom, resilience, and the profound impact of effective boundary setting in the lives of grandparents and our grandchildren.
00:03:53.060 --> 00:04:05.919
Well, welcome back to another heartfelt episode in grandparents raising grandchildren. I'm your host, Laura Brazon, and today's conversation promises to be deeply insightful and empowering.
00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:51.915
Joining us is Katherine Cleveland, a remarkable individual whose expertise and life's work have made profound impacts in the field of mental health. Catherine is a PhD trained and licensed mental health counselor dedicated to enhancing well being through transformative counseling approaches. Her commitment is evident not only in her counseling practice, but also through her transformational books and meaningful contributions aimed at empowering others. Her interviews are always informative, motivational, and highly engaging, and today's dialogue will certainly be no exception. Good morning, Katherine.
00:04:52.108 --> 00:04:54.600
Good morning. So nice to be here.
00:04:55.939 --> 00:06:20.824
We know that especially with grandparents raising grandchildren, it's so important to maintain healthy boundaries, especially with the complicated family and interpersonal relationships we're dealing with. I know you've just written this wonderful book called the four essential pillars of boundary setting, and I'd like to know what inspired you to write the book. And maybe tell us a little bit. About these four pillars. Well, what really inspired me is that in my private practice, this is a topic that comes up with my patients over and over and over again. And I just, you start to hear the same things that we have all these common issues with. What boundaries are understanding boundaries, the difficulties of setting boundaries, what exactly they are. So it inspired me to help people out there, just beyond my reach in my own office is to write a book. And the book is an interactive workbook that helps you sort out your values, your boundaries, and what's really important to you. I really wanted to use it as a guide, a practice informed guide. So it took some theory based on, for example, Bernays work on how important boundaries are. If you're a follower of her, you can look into that, but took her research and then put it into practice to see what that needed to look like.
00:06:20.872 --> 00:07:02.502
Because one of the biggest questions people say, well, how do I do that? So we know we need boundaries, but everyone's saying, how do I do that? I don't know how to do that. That's the main thing that inspired the book. Ed's grandparents raising grandchildren explain to us how we can begin navigating those complicated family dynamics. So the four pillars just gives you a guide, and they're kind of in order of importance. So the first thing you do before you get to the pillars is you write down your intention. What is your intention for boundary setting? And you may not know that, so you might want to skim the book to help you figure that out. Why is this important? The first pillar that's important to address is values.
00:07:02.565 --> 00:08:38.940
And values are what you are okay with and what you are not okay with. So the values are for you personally. They're also your family values. So in order to have boundaries, which is pillar number two, we have to start with number one to know what our values are. If we're not clear on our values, like, I'm not okay with this, this is important in my life. And writing that down to see that clearly and then sorting that out, it's very difficult to set boundaries. So the second pillar is we take those values and then we start to decide what boundaries need to be put in our life. Once we start to sort that out, then we go to the next step and we look at boundaries as far as consequences. So if we're talking about interpersonal boundaries between you and another person, there has to be some kind of consequence, because there's the next topic that comes up and where somebody says, well, I had this boundary, but they kept crossing it. But it explains clearly that the boundaries are set for you, for your family, for what your needs are, and that if there's no consequences, it's actually that I'm the one who's crossing my boundaries, not somebody else. So the first one is values. Second one, take the values, put them into the boundaries, and then make sure you have clear consequences. The fourth pillar goes into depth of what are we doing emotionally and in different ways to sabotage our own boundaries? What are we doing to see that clearly so we can work through that?
00:08:39.059 --> 00:09:04.259
In some situations, we can't work through that. It's too difficult, it's too hard. Our guilt is too strong. So that might be a time when we can address that, and we may need to seek help to work with what's getting in the way of setting boundaries. So that's the basic premise of the four essential pillars of boundaries. Is there a different way of teaching it to young children than to adults?
00:09:04.720 --> 00:10:10.009
I really haven't worked a lot with young children to see it, but I think we can do it at their developmental level, especially if you're doing it from a family perspective. So if you're doing it from an individual perspective, because all sorts of different people find value in this book, people are setting boundaries in their employment, with their jobs and issues. But if you're talking about young people, that would be where you take it. You do the work yourself, and then you make a family exercise where you work with them at the level of their development. That's why it's kind of open ended. Instead of saying, these are what your values should be. It says, what are your values? What are important? And all of this is subject to change, especially as children grow. It's one thing teaching this to an eight year old, but things change by the time you're 14 or 15 years old. That's the thing, is, it's a working document, which is lovely. How would you explain what a boundary is to begin with to a child? A boundary is what I am okay with and what I am not okay with.
00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:18.413
So, for example, a boundary I have is I need regular sleep to feel good in my life. All right?
00:10:18.542 --> 00:10:47.250
So a boundary for me would be that I am not okay with being up late at night watching tv. My boundary is around 1011 o'clock. I have a regular sleep time. A boundary between myself and another person may be, if you are treating me poorly or you're mean to me, then I can't be in a deep relationship with you because that's self worth and self respect. It's all really specific to your situation.
00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:59.379
Well, I know with these kids, a lot of them have been brought up with zero boundaries. Yes. So, for instance, when I got my grandchildren, they were up at all hours of the night.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:08.128
They had no manners, no ability to sit at a table. They interrupt people constantly.
00:11:08.303 --> 00:12:35.740
We all do have different boundaries. So it's a complicated concept for kids. I know many adults that have never really established boundaries. I guess all we can do is make people aware that this is something that will give our grandchildren a healthier foundation in life and in their relationships with other people as they grow. Absolutely. I think also children, when you are asking them what they care about, so we can look at it and say, well, these are our boundaries. These are family boundaries. There is a certain bedtime that we have, but there's also letting the child be seen, heard and valued. When you're saying, what are your values? Asking the child, again, depending on their age, what their values are, and teach them what their values are. So give them examples. So instead of me just saying, these are our boundaries and forcing them on them, not that we don't need discipline and structure in the family system, but giving them an opportunity to be heard. And a lot of these kids are just not being heard, seen or valued. That's some of the biggest trauma that I see in my work, is that we don't know how to see, hear and value ourselves, which affects our self worth because we didn't get that. And you're talking about kids that have been maybe passed around or a little bit and they are dealing with a lot of trauma.
00:12:36.269 --> 00:13:27.682
And that's all they want to do is be seen, heard and valued. So this opportunity to sit down and say what is important to you, along with what is important in our family values, kind of lets them feel like they've got some autonomy, like they've got a say. And a lot of times kids don't feel like they have a say. And it's. It's going to be a slow process. This is something that goes over time, depending on how old they are, when, when you have them. And then, and even if it doesn't seem to be working out right away, it's a bigger picture. It's in the long run, they're developing these skills, and then as adults, we are able to see ourselves in a better light, you know, value ourselves, to develop some authenticity, to feel empowered and to be kinder to ourselves.
00:13:27.826 --> 00:13:36.539
So this is really a great foundation for young people to be able to learn at different ages how to set their own boundaries.
00:13:38.799 --> 00:14:03.629
I like that idea. I know that when I do ask them how they feel, it's so much easier to explain why I need what I need. This is important to you? Well, this is important to me, but if they see it from the perspective of it being about them, this is important to you. Therefore, here's me, too. This is important to me.
00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:12.470
Yeah. Can you elaborate on the importance of incorporating consequences into boundary setting and why that's important?
00:14:18.169 --> 00:14:21.905
Boundaries, meaning between you and another person, needs consequences.
00:14:22.018 --> 00:16:06.450
Interpersonal boundaries, like for me, like when I was talking about like having a certain bedtime or something, like brushing my teeth on a regular basis, I don't need to put consequences on it because if I in place, because I don't follow those, the consequences are going to show up, right? If I never brush my teeth, they're going to fall out. I don't need consequences. They're just going to be there. If I don't sleep properly, I'm going to start feeling good and have some health problems. So the consequences are going to be there. So those are interpersonal boundaries, the values that I have for myself. But when I'm talking about interpersonal boundaries, being with somebody else, we need consequences. So, for example, the boundary that you set based on your values, no matter, it could be something super strong. Like, I am not okay with this. If you are treating me and abusing me in a certain way, then I need to leave the relationship. That's a consequence right there. It has to match. If you're disrupting my sleep tonight and I say, I'm leaving this relationship. That doesn't make sense. That's just like way of a mismatch. Again, the consequences are up to you. That's why we start from the beginning. You don't just come up with consequences. You really sit with a boundary and as you put it in place, then you'll know what you need to do. You may need to ask for help to say, if this boundary gets crossed or I'm letting you cross this boundary, there has to be a consequence. If I don't put the consequence in place, reasonable, then I don't have a boundary anymore. The boundary doesn't exist. That's where people will come in and say, I don't know how to do this. I'm trying to set boundaries, but it's not working. People are crossing them well because there's no consequences.
00:16:06.950 --> 00:17:29.301
So without consequences in interpersonal relationships, boundaries really are very difficult to maintain. I hear from a lot of grandparents who are trying to help their grandchildren maintain relationships with their parents, and I experience it myself, where you tell your children, if you're going to be involved with your children from a distance and a parent says they're going to call and they don't call. Or I have experienced my son in law, when he was communicating with us, he would say, tell my daughter that I love her even though I can't call. And I'll say, you need to tell her that yourself. I'm not going to be the one that gets involved with explaining why you don't call, but that you still love her, even though I do explain that to her from my own perspective, I think it's not proper for us to be communicating messages back and forth that are personal. What do you think about that? I think that's great because you're expressing these are important values to you.
00:17:29.445 --> 00:18:14.039
You're encouraging them to communicate more directly with their children to maintain that connection. And it's important that that's how you see it. How is it that we see it and then we can share that with people, so then they can take that information and see whether they can integrate that in their situation. We don't always know what people's situations are, so maybe that fits, maybe it doesn't, but they're gathering information and they're like, okay, you know what? That's a good idea, because if I don't have those boundaries set in and I'm the one who's telling you that you love your daughter all the time, I'm getting angry. So one of the consequences of not having boundaries is being angry at somebody, especially somebody that we're supposed to love.
00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:21.107
And I don't want to be angry at the people that I love in my life because they're not respecting my boundaries.
00:18:21.243 --> 00:19:05.021
So that is an excellent way to not be angry at them, because you're setting a boundary and you're saying, look, it's not okay for me to deliver this message of compassion and love because it doesn't mean the same thing, and I'm not okay with that. Which emotions tend to impede the process of maintaining boundaries. That's a great chapter. So that's number four. The biggest one that comes in, there's several of them, is guilt. And I'll explain that a little bit. But there's also shame. I actually bookmarked that because that's one of the most popular questions I get. So there's guilt, there's shame, there's a feeling of helplessness.
00:19:05.086 --> 00:19:15.849
Like, we feel like we can't do this. You know, we just kind of feel like we don't have the strength or the confidence to set these boundaries and maintain them.
00:19:16.269 --> 00:20:44.339
This one isn't quite as comfortable for people to hear. But sometimes, if we're always blaming everything and everybody else for our life situation, so lacking accountability, that's a really, really tough one for people to hear and to own. And I understand that another thing is fear and worry. We may be afraid of that person. What do I do in that situation if I'm afraid of this person? And so that's something that may be a little bit longer term, you know, how do I work with it? So it might not just be walking the door and say, okay, this is the boundary, and here's the consequences. If there's fear related coming in there or we're worried about anything, we may need to have a longer term plan to be safe, especially if it's with someone who's abusing us. We can't just walk in and set a boundary because they may give us some severe consequences. But the main one in general is in all parts of our lives, if it's interpersonal relationships with our friends, family, colleagues, children, is guilt. And what guilt means is in this definition, that I am doing something wrong. I feel guilty because I'm doing something wrong. Part of us, if you look at two parts of us, one part of us says, God, I need boundaries. I know I need to set boundaries. And then there's the other part of us that says, I feel so bad when I do this, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. So those two things are conflicting inside of us.
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:51.430
But one of the things I want to remind us of is ask yourself this question, am I really doing something wrong?
00:20:52.130 --> 00:21:36.435
So it's not real guilt. Guilt is if I do something wrong and I did something like, I hit your car because I wasn't paying attention, then I feel bad because I did something wrong. And then I say, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, I made a mistake, or I missed an appointment. You're like, oh, my God, I feel so guilty. I wasted your time. I'm so sorry. So we make a repair. That's genuine guilt. But this kind of guilt is just getting in the way because it's not genuine, because you're not doing something wrong. And you have to remind yourself that you are doing something for the bigger picture of your life and your children's and your grandchildren's life. It's important look at the bigger picture, and that helps reduce some of the guilt that comes along with it.
00:21:36.468 --> 00:22:23.991
So that guilt is usually the number one thing that sabotages ourselves, sabotaging our boundaries. The other one that we'll briefly touch on is shame. Shame and guilt are kind of closely related. But shame looks a little bit more at like, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy of standing up for myself. I'm not worthy of being able to speak my mind. I'm not worthy of being my authentic self, because that is self worth is shame. So if my self worth needs to come up and work on that I'm worthwhile, then it's easier for saying, hey, you know what? I deserve this. I deserve to have a better life.
00:22:24.056 --> 00:22:27.728
I deserve to find some contentment. I deserve to find some peace.
00:22:27.864 --> 00:22:42.380
So I am going to set these boundaries, because then again, to remind everybody that the boundaries keep us from being frustrated and angry with the people that we're supposed to love. It takes away compassion.
00:22:42.680 --> 00:23:56.309
If I'm angry at you, and I love you like you're my mom and I love you, but I'm angry at you all the time for years. I don't want to feel that way towards you. So if I set the boundary, it allows for compassion, more love and compassion to come out to people. And so, in general, boundaries, we're feeling guilty about it, but it basically makes us more compassionate people. And all of us grandparents want to leave a better life for our grandchildren. These issues can oftentimes be generational. As women or as men, we've carried on the examples that our parents set for us and their grandparents set for them. So we're talking about improving our grandchildren's lives and making them better so that they don't repeat some of the things that they've grown up with, with their parents that have been unhealthy. Yeah, it's breaking the pattern. It takes courage to be the first person in your generation to break that pattern. Yes.
00:23:56.849 --> 00:24:04.099
Exciting, though, because I don't know any of those things that you just mentioned that anyone doesn't need to work on.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:34.968
Oh, we're all a work in progress. You know, here I am talking about the book and how to do this. Like, you know, I mean, it's something I talk about almost daily in my practice. I love it. But it doesn't mean that I'm not human, too, because one of the things we want to do is please people. We don't want to upset people. So the people, please God, it can come in and we're more worried about what you think about us than about our own well being. Sometimes, not always.
00:24:35.023 --> 00:25:56.359
And being kind to people isn't a weakness, but it makes us kinder genuinely if we can be able to put those boundaries. So even though I have boundaries, boundaries are. Some of them are set in concrete and will never change in my life. And some of them are flexible that are going to change as I change and develop or as I come into a different state age of my life. You know, if you come in from a young child to a teenager to a young adult, middle aged, older age, all of this stuff is going to change because we're changing. So that's the beauty of it, is to be able to really have that self worth, to be able to say, this is what I'm looking for. And everyone says, I just want to be happier. And what we're looking for is a type of contentment. And if we are frustrated with other people all the time, that's exhausting. I just don't want to spend my life being upset with people that are really important to me, especially my family and my close friends. So that allows me, with my boundaries to have very deep, intimate relationships with people that are important to me. And that's the beauty of boundaries. It's not pushing people away, it's allowing them to be in your life in a safe way.
00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:18.750
Just yesterday, I was speaking with my granddaughter about something, and as the words were coming out of my mouth, as I was trying to teach her about something I wanted her to learn, I remembered the exact same day I had been a bad example myself of what I was trying to teach.
00:26:19.049 --> 00:26:33.269
So I had to be transparent about it. I think it's important to let her know. Remember when grandma said this? I didn't do a very good job of this, so I need to learn about this, too. So we'll work on this together.
00:26:34.130 --> 00:26:37.910
Oh, and they feel valued, they feel heard, they feel seen.
00:26:38.490 --> 00:27:11.713
When you do such a thing, I love that you're doing that because it's called repair. So many adults that grew up in childhood drama are just looking for that repair that they may never get where the parent says, hey, look, I'm really sorry that I was this way, or I'm really sorry, but we're always looking for someone to acknowledge what they did. And you're talking, and it doesn't matter what scale it's on, you're talking, hey, remember what I did the other day? You know, that just wasn't right.
00:27:11.761 --> 00:27:29.698
And I'm going to acknowledge that that's a type of repair. Think about it, that we are going to damage our relationships sometimes. We are going to get angry, we are going to make mistakes, we are going to get frustrated, and we are going to regret it. But to work on that is important.
00:27:29.834 --> 00:27:51.756
But also to repair it is important. Even if it was something that I did ten years ago or something. If my child is 40 years old and is something I did when he was 18, I'm going to say, when you were 18, I just wasn't in my best state, and I just want to acknowledge that I'm sorry. And I tell you what, the emotions will come up and just people crave that.
00:27:51.827 --> 00:27:55.400
So that's a great. Doesn't matter when it happens.
00:27:55.700 --> 00:29:29.769
And it's a good way to model, like what you were saying before about having the courage to break that intergenerational pattern of behaviors. And for the person that comes to my practice, they're that person. Wow, does that take courage? They're coming into the office to make changes in their life, and it's scary, but they do it anyway because then all of a sudden, their behaviors start to change, and then they're becoming a better role model for their children, grandchildren, for anybody around them, because they're saying people are noticing they're changing, and then they're like, wow, this is great. And if I see that you can do this and you are making progress, no matter how difficult it is, it lets me believe in myself a little bit. It's like, wow, maybe I can do that, too. I've noticed with children, they look to adults as they're some kind of gods. They don't understand them. And they can listen to the words that we say. And we say, you need to not interrupt me when I'm speaking or something. They're nodding their heads because they're trying to learn and they want to be good, and they want to be rewarded for being good. And then they see us do the same thing ourselves and in their brains. I imagine it must be really confusing unless we're explaining, oh, see what I just did? That probably wasn't the right way to do that.
00:29:30.589 --> 00:29:48.490
We're modeling a neurological pattern as our brains are growing and learning. You mentioned in your book the benefits in terms of cognitive processes and developing neural pathways when we practice boundary setting.
00:29:48.789 --> 00:30:13.564
Can you talk about that a little bit? I know it might be a little technical, but for the listeners, absolutely. Whenever we are trying to change a behavior or a pattern that we have, it is not just flipping a switch. It takes practice every time. Like you said, you take a pause. Think of it like a pause, and you're like, whoa, I just told you not to do something.
00:30:13.652 --> 00:30:49.723
And then I just did it. You took a pause. That pause right there literally is what starts to change the neural connections in our brain, to switch the old ones off and start to turn some new ones on. And that takes practice over and over and over again. And every time that we notice, and it's all self observation is what we're talking about. So every time I noticed that I did a good job or I didn't like what I just said, or I don't like how I came across, or that doesn't seem like a good role model for you, or I really didn't hear what you had to say, I wasn't listening.
00:30:49.771 --> 00:30:56.352
I was having a bad day, and I got frustrated, and I really didn't hear it. Then you take that pause and you listen, right.
00:30:56.415 --> 00:31:22.352
Right then and there, it is a change that you are consciously making. And when you make that change over and over and over again, you're developing a new pattern of behavior. So we have to be very patient with ourselves. We are not going to get it right. Right off the bat. If we're breaking these patterns and behaviors that we've learned from many generations before us, we have to be kind.
00:31:22.455 --> 00:31:47.740
We've had that ingrained in us for so long. Long. We don't expect to change it overnight. So what comes in place here is self kindness. To be kind to yourself, as you're saying, whoa, wait a minute. I just noticed this. A lot of times, we judge ourselves and says, like, oh, my God, I can't believe I just did that. I just told my kid this, and then I did this. Look at me. I just can't get this right. That's not it.
00:31:47.779 --> 00:32:15.478
That's being cruel. That's judging yourself rather than sabotage exactly what it is. And rather than saying, wow, I just noticed that score. I just figured this out. Yes, I messed it up. Yes, I was wrong. Yes, that was not a good example. But I'm like, good for me. Yes, I did it. And then I'm being compassionate to myself and I'm encouraging myself, and then all of a sudden, the brain is literally starting to change.
00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:41.314
Those connections are starting to change. I've been working on some of my own work as far as having the confidence to set boundaries for many, many years and getting better and better at it. And now I look back at probably since writing the book and working with other people directly and indirectly, I'm like, wow, I'm getting really good at this. And people just think, well, this is so easy for you. I'm like, no, it's easier.
00:32:41.481 --> 00:32:45.263
And I have more confidence, and age has a lot to do with that.
00:32:45.402 --> 00:33:32.440
But I'm really proud of myself. That's what we're looking for, is to see that change. And it is so difficult because it takes so much self compassion, kindness, and patience. Think about recently, over the summer we had the Olympic games. You think these people just jump in the swimming pool and win the race? Think of the years and years and years and years of having to change their body and develop these repetitive patterns so they can put a lot of effort into it. It's the same thing with our practice. It is training. It's almost a practice. So if we want major changes, we have to be patient and we have to practice. And then when we do well and we notice something, we have to say, yeah, I'm on the right track.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:34:26.494
That's great. Can these neural pathways be changed after a child is three or five or eight years old or. Or 80? Absolutely. At any time, the brain, and I won't get into this part of it because it does get too technical. But there's a thing called neuroplasticity that means years and years ago, they believed that you got to a certain age and your brain was just set. That's how it is. But it's not true. Like you say, you can teach an old dog new tricks, but it may be easier for a younger child because their brain is more able to absorb information like a sponge. But it doesn't matter how old you are, we can always learn something new. Just because you've never done this before doesn't mean that you can't put some kind of an effort. So it does not matter how old you are. You can be an 80 year old person and decide to change. It is a decision.
00:34:26.581 --> 00:34:52.039
It is a conscious decision to make an effort to do this. It's just wonderful to not worry about how old you are, to be able to make changes. A lot of people will come in to my office and be like, well, I'm 50 years old. I wish I did this 30 years ago. But it doesn't matter. You're doing it now. That's what's really important. So absolutely, it does not matter how old you are, you can make these changes in your brain.
00:34:52.579 --> 00:35:02.679
I think about the grandparent who's raising a child that they might have gotten custody of at the age of five or six. In our case, our grandson was three.
00:35:03.420 --> 00:36:04.431
And issues that come up throughout their lives, and I can't understand why they don't conceive of a particular concept. But then I had this flash thought in my mind, as you were speaking, that when they're babies, before they understand things, they just sit and watch their parents. So they weren't held or they weren't spoken to or there weren't responses to their cries that these neural pathways that they've developed don't understand the concepts of what they have to do as an adult to get a healthy response out of another adult. So for grandparents, when we can understand where their parents came from and what these children saw, it maybe easier to model a particular behavior and then explain to them why.
00:36:04.615 --> 00:36:19.376
I know that it's difficult to do this because you didn't see this, but this is how we do it. Like playing a game. Here's the game we're going to play. We're going to call it boundary setting. And this is how this works.
00:36:19.487 --> 00:36:38.293
You make a move, I make a move. If we can visualize it to them, kids can begin to go, oh, this is a game that I have to play to get these kinds of results. Right. I can add to that is thinking of, we talk about trauma of children.
00:36:38.382 --> 00:37:12.034
All right, so like you were saying, they weren't hugged, they weren't soothed, they weren't rocked, their needs weren't attended to in a timely manner. And so when we think of trauma, we tend to think of what happened to people. They got beat or abused or something like that, or physically neglected and didn't get fed. But there's another way to add to looking at trauma. And what you didn't get, that's what you said, is like, what they're not getting. So trauma isn't only what happened to you, but it's what didn't happen to you.
00:37:12.161 --> 00:37:30.748
So that tends to haunt us and is harder to resolve. Never being held, never having that rocking, soothing, it's okay from the parent because they weren't capable of it for whatever reason. And it isn't necessarily that the parent was a bad parent. We're not looking at blame.
00:37:30.844 --> 00:37:52.106
It could be a parent that died, it could be both parents that all of a sudden you're a child, you have no control over it. And what happens, the younger they are, the worse it is to what happens to a young child because they don't have. Have the brain capacity, the development to understand the situation like an older child or an adult, is that their body remembers.
00:37:52.217 --> 00:38:25.074
They don't know how to relax. And the more early trauma there is, you'll see a lot more of this, and you'll see a lot more severe addictions with early childhood trauma, because the trauma is kept in the body. And even though we don't remember any of it, the body always remembers. And then all of a sudden, like, something will happen. You're 14 years old or 40 years old, and you have a really severe reaction to it. Like you got triggered in something and you're like, I have no idea what's going on. Your body remembers.
00:38:25.202 --> 00:38:58.411
There's this inability to self soothe, because if we aren't soothed, we don't know how to self soothe. So not only, Laura, what you're saying is about the game and explaining it to them a cognitive level. We also have to be aware of what's happening physically in our body because we don't know, because people will come in and I'll say, do you notice that this is happening in your body? What's going on physically? They're like, I don't know. I don't know. There becomes this huge detachment and avoidance of the self throughout the whole life.
00:38:58.556 --> 00:39:05.793
And I think that's one of the biggest causes of severe mental health problems, even just regular mental health problems, is avoiding ourselves.
00:39:05.922 --> 00:39:23.989
And if we don't know how to connect with ourselves because we weren't connected for whatever reason, we don't realize that there's a problem here. So it's a physical thing. What's happening to you right now? Do you notice that we're talking about this and, like, maybe how to connect with another human being in a healthy way?
00:39:24.610 --> 00:41:11.228
I can give you an example of a young woman, and that if you touch her forearm, and she's a lovely woman, I mean, everything, but she goes, if you touch my forearm, I'm just like. And that's, that's early, like, not being able to soothe. That's just, it's her body as a child reacting. Here's another example. If you're not familiar with this, if you've ever seen somebody yell at a dog, they cower. So that's what our bodies are doing, and we don't know this. So we're bringing awareness into the physical aspect of trauma and starting to reconnect with ourselves physically. And noticing that my stomach is really upset right now, or I got a heavy chest, my heart is racing, I've gone into a brain fog. And not running and avoiding that, but sitting with it and tolerating it and soothing it, soothing yourself and you're feeling that way. But what we do a lot of times is we find some kind of a coping, an unhealthy coping methods instead, like drinking, smoking, shopping, eating sugar. That's probably, you know, and we all have one, you know, I'm not anybody out. We all have some kind of a coping mechanism to deal with the inability to self soothe and sit with that discomfort. And the discomfort, which we're talking a lot about is understanding our thoughts and feelings, but also what's happening physically in our body. Key. That's the healing process right there. What basic techniques do you use to. Cope with those reactions? Or what do you teach your clients? I teach them while we're in session so I can say, this is what's happening, and then they can go home. But we do it right while it's happening. So you'll come in with a topic that's uncomfortable for you to talk about.
00:41:11.403 --> 00:42:17.648
And while you're talking about it, we're developing self awareness. Do number one is not breathing, is the anxiety will come up, so they'll come in. Especially, it's the first day. They've never met me. I'm a stranger. They're about to come in and talk about some really intimate stuff, and it's terrifying. And so we addressed that right off the bat, and I said, and we address the anxiety coming up. I don't work directly with children. I'll do some teenagers, but with the young children, I have a colleague that's right next to me that we work closely together, and what she does is a thing called play therapy with a child. You know, they don't trust you. There's a huge trust issue so they have to take good pediatric counselors to take a lot more time to build the trust. There's many great ways to do it. But my colleague Jessica, she does it with play therapy. She's got a huge playroom. So the kid comes in and they're like, wow, this is like, not a doctor's office. This is a playroom. And then all of a sudden, they use play to, in order to express themselves.
00:42:17.744 --> 00:42:28.815
When, especially at different ages, they use art, they use whatever they want to do, and that allows the child to be able to express themselves through play. That's how we do it with them.
00:42:28.847 --> 00:42:36.123
And then we can. Then if they say, do you feel anything in your body? And they're like, my tummy's upset. Well, does your tummy get upset?
00:42:36.251 --> 00:42:39.420
You know, when else does your tummy get upset? Can you tell me about that?
00:42:39.460 --> 00:42:56.800
So with adults, we can be more direct. With children, if we're too direct, they just aren't going to connect. So we have to be very patient and very indirect and do it through play, and it works phenomenally. One of my grandkids is in physical pain. Often.
00:42:58.579 --> 00:43:09.541
My granddaughter, when she hugs me, she'll just throw her arms around me, and it's really hard, and her head goes down. You know, it's not like a gentle, loving.
00:43:09.686 --> 00:43:20.369
And I talk to her and I say, that felt like a fearful hug. I said, can you give me a courageous hug?
00:43:20.949 --> 00:44:00.190
And then she'll show me, and it's very powerful. And she slowly hugs me and puts her face next to mine. I said, yes. That wasn't a shameful hug. That's lovely. I guess to give people resources, if they're looking for resources to act through play with their children or grandchildren or anybody, is to go look for someone who is certified as a play therapist, because a good play therapist, they work with a child. Mainly the child is the patient, but then they bring the family into it. So the family is able to do it through play, especially at the younger.
00:44:00.929 --> 00:45:18.820
So instead of saying, how do I go about using play to help help these young people that are so important in my life is that's what they do. You go to these sessions and they teach you how to do it. And it's such a phenomenal practice of play therapy. It's all over the country. In my area, it's pretty popular. My colleague Jessica Wilcox brings the parents in her process, and this is important when you're vetting people, is she meets with the parents first, sometimes together, sometimes separately. Her grandparents or whoever the caretakers are, I should say. And then she brings the children in and then she works as the family together. So it's kind of like, I think they call filial therapy. So they work the family as a unit. So it is important when you are doing therapy that at some point the parents or the caretakers come back in and learn what's going on. So if you are not, I mean, you know, most of her work is directly with the child, but if some, at some point, it is very important to bring the adult into the room so they can continue this as when they go home, so they know what's going on. Great. Thank you for that advice, Catherine. Where can our listeners find more information about you and your practices and your book?
00:45:19.239 --> 00:46:09.349
Well, thank you. My website is Catherine gcleveland.com. you can go anywhere to find my book. It's all over Amazon, anywhere where you buy books, barnes and nobles. You can even probably get it at the library. But it is a workbook. It's interactive, so you might want a copy of it so you can write in it on purpose. At Katherine G. Cleveland.com, we'll link you to my business website if that's something you're interested in learning more, which is clevelandemotionalhealth.com. so that's the best places. I'm all over social media. I will put that information in the show notes the four essential pillars of boundary setting. Thanks, Katherine. Thanks Laura. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today for another episode of grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity.
00:46:09.969 --> 00:47:36.710
I encourage you to share your challenges and your successes with us. Your story is undoubtedly one someone else needs to hear. You can submit your stories to the links provided in the podcast information. Your contributions will enrich the upcoming conversations, creating a more supportive community in which we can learn and grow together. If you enjoyed this show, please share it with a friend that needs to hear. And if you love the show and you're listening on a broadcasting platform like Apple or Spotify, just scroll down in your app and please leave us a review. Are you struggling to cope with the rollercoaster of life? I hope you'll join me next week with happiness expert Matt O'Neill in this transformative episode. Together, we'll discuss unveiling the secret to finding joy amidst life's challenges. Drawing on our own experiences from life threatening accidents, Matt emphasizes the power of gratitude and acceptance over victimhood, showing how these mindsets can unlock boundless energy and happiness. Discover how to break free from self imposed limitations and embrace life's ups and downs with a sense of spiritual purpose. We'll dive into practical strategies for managing stress through meditation, healthy living, and honoring what feels right for you.
00:47:37.130 --> 00:47:57.989
Learn how to take on challenges and addressing negative emotions can lead to nurturing self care and balance well being. Matt shares profound insights on overcoming shame and generational trauma, illustrating how emotional healing can create positive ripple effects for future generations.
00:47:59.050 --> 00:48:41.230
Tune in to uncover how to find happiness within regardless of your circumstances. We invite you to share your own stories of triumph and challenges, reminding us that happiness is not just a destination, it's a chosen path. Thank you for tuning in to grandparents, raising grandchildren. Nurturing through adversity remember, you are not alone. Together we can find strength and hope in the face of adversity. Peace be with you, and I pray. That you find some time this week to listen to your inner wisdom amongst the noise and the pandemonium of this world.
00:00:00.839 --> 00:00:08.330
Do you struggle with saying no? Do you often feel guilt or shame when you ask for what you know you deserve?
00:00:08.869 --> 00:00:23.489
If the words people pleaser resonates with you, this episode is for you. In our upcoming episode of grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity, we dive into the challenges of setting healthy boundaries.
00:00:23.989 --> 00:00:46.057
Are you trying to make up for your grandkids tough times with food, toys, or otherworldly pleasures? You may not realize it, but these habits can be passed down, affecting how our grandchildren view love and security. Join us for an eye opening conversation about how establishing boundaries can actually strengthen your relationships.
00:00:46.194 --> 00:01:03.240
Teach your grandchildren that love can flourish in a safe and healthy environment. Don't miss this transformative episode that might just change the way you approach love and connection in your family. Tune in and discover the power of boundaries. I'll see you there.
00:01:07.659 --> 00:01:56.299
Welcome to grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity in this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and triumphs of grandparents raising grandchildren as we navigate the complexities of legal, financial, and emotional emotional support. I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings, and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of childrearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through. The intricate journey of kinship care.
00:01:58.609 --> 00:02:16.550
Well discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you.
00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:27.000
Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored.
00:02:34.379 --> 00:03:07.090
As many of you know, setting boundaries can sometimes feel like a daunting and even overwhelming task. Whether you're trying to ensure a structured environment for your grandchildren or seeking a harmonious balance within your own personal life, boundaries play an essential role. They aren't just a set of rules and limitations. They're fundamentally about creating a safe space where both adults and children can thrive emotionally, mentally, and physically.
00:03:08.110 --> 00:03:51.039
In today's episode, we will explore the intricate dance of setting and maintaining boundaries, understand the importance of relational repair, and delve into the courage it takes to break longstanding intergenerational patterns. We will also discuss the invaluable role of self compassion and persistent practice in fostering real, lasting change. So get comfortable, grab your favorite cup of tea, and let's embark on this journey together to discover wisdom, resilience, and the profound impact of effective boundary setting in the lives of grandparents and our grandchildren.
00:03:53.060 --> 00:04:05.919
Well, welcome back to another heartfelt episode in grandparents raising grandchildren. I'm your host, Laura Brazon, and today's conversation promises to be deeply insightful and empowering.
00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:51.915
Joining us is Katherine Cleveland, a remarkable individual whose expertise and life's work have made profound impacts in the field of mental health. Catherine is a PhD trained and licensed mental health counselor dedicated to enhancing well being through transformative counseling approaches. Her commitment is evident not only in her counseling practice, but also through her transformational books and meaningful contributions aimed at empowering others. Her interviews are always informative, motivational, and highly engaging, and today's dialogue will certainly be no exception. Good morning, Katherine.
00:04:52.108 --> 00:04:54.600
Good morning. So nice to be here.
00:04:55.939 --> 00:06:20.824
We know that especially with grandparents raising grandchildren, it's so important to maintain healthy boundaries, especially with the complicated family and interpersonal relationships we're dealing with. I know you've just written this wonderful book called the four essential pillars of boundary setting, and I'd like to know what inspired you to write the book. And maybe tell us a little bit. About these four pillars. Well, what really inspired me is that in my private practice, this is a topic that comes up with my patients over and over and over again. And I just, you start to hear the same things that we have all these common issues with. What boundaries are understanding boundaries, the difficulties of setting boundaries, what exactly they are. So it inspired me to help people out there, just beyond my reach in my own office is to write a book. And the book is an interactive workbook that helps you sort out your values, your boundaries, and what's really important to you. I really wanted to use it as a guide, a practice informed guide. So it took some theory based on, for example, Bernays work on how important boundaries are. If you're a follower of her, you can look into that, but took her research and then put it into practice to see what that needed to look like.
00:06:20.872 --> 00:07:02.502
Because one of the biggest questions people say, well, how do I do that? So we know we need boundaries, but everyone's saying, how do I do that? I don't know how to do that. That's the main thing that inspired the book. Ed's grandparents raising grandchildren explain to us how we can begin navigating those complicated family dynamics. So the four pillars just gives you a guide, and they're kind of in order of importance. So the first thing you do before you get to the pillars is you write down your intention. What is your intention for boundary setting? And you may not know that, so you might want to skim the book to help you figure that out. Why is this important? The first pillar that's important to address is values.
00:07:02.565 --> 00:08:38.940
And values are what you are okay with and what you are not okay with. So the values are for you personally. They're also your family values. So in order to have boundaries, which is pillar number two, we have to start with number one to know what our values are. If we're not clear on our values, like, I'm not okay with this, this is important in my life. And writing that down to see that clearly and then sorting that out, it's very difficult to set boundaries. So the second pillar is we take those values and then we start to decide what boundaries need to be put in our life. Once we start to sort that out, then we go to the next step and we look at boundaries as far as consequences. So if we're talking about interpersonal boundaries between you and another person, there has to be some kind of consequence, because there's the next topic that comes up and where somebody says, well, I had this boundary, but they kept crossing it. But it explains clearly that the boundaries are set for you, for your family, for what your needs are, and that if there's no consequences, it's actually that I'm the one who's crossing my boundaries, not somebody else. So the first one is values. Second one, take the values, put them into the boundaries, and then make sure you have clear consequences. The fourth pillar goes into depth of what are we doing emotionally and in different ways to sabotage our own boundaries? What are we doing to see that clearly so we can work through that?
00:08:39.059 --> 00:09:04.259
In some situations, we can't work through that. It's too difficult, it's too hard. Our guilt is too strong. So that might be a time when we can address that, and we may need to seek help to work with what's getting in the way of setting boundaries. So that's the basic premise of the four essential pillars of boundaries. Is there a different way of teaching it to young children than to adults?
00:09:04.720 --> 00:10:10.009
I really haven't worked a lot with young children to see it, but I think we can do it at their developmental level, especially if you're doing it from a family perspective. So if you're doing it from an individual perspective, because all sorts of different people find value in this book, people are setting boundaries in their employment, with their jobs and issues. But if you're talking about young people, that would be where you take it. You do the work yourself, and then you make a family exercise where you work with them at the level of their development. That's why it's kind of open ended. Instead of saying, these are what your values should be. It says, what are your values? What are important? And all of this is subject to change, especially as children grow. It's one thing teaching this to an eight year old, but things change by the time you're 14 or 15 years old. That's the thing, is, it's a working document, which is lovely. How would you explain what a boundary is to begin with to a child? A boundary is what I am okay with and what I am not okay with.
00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:18.413
So, for example, a boundary I have is I need regular sleep to feel good in my life. All right?
00:10:18.542 --> 00:10:47.250
So a boundary for me would be that I am not okay with being up late at night watching tv. My boundary is around 1011 o'clock. I have a regular sleep time. A boundary between myself and another person may be, if you are treating me poorly or you're mean to me, then I can't be in a deep relationship with you because that's self worth and self respect. It's all really specific to your situation.
00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:59.379
Well, I know with these kids, a lot of them have been brought up with zero boundaries. Yes. So, for instance, when I got my grandchildren, they were up at all hours of the night.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:08.128
They had no manners, no ability to sit at a table. They interrupt people constantly.
00:11:08.303 --> 00:12:35.740
We all do have different boundaries. So it's a complicated concept for kids. I know many adults that have never really established boundaries. I guess all we can do is make people aware that this is something that will give our grandchildren a healthier foundation in life and in their relationships with other people as they grow. Absolutely. I think also children, when you are asking them what they care about, so we can look at it and say, well, these are our boundaries. These are family boundaries. There is a certain bedtime that we have, but there's also letting the child be seen, heard and valued. When you're saying, what are your values? Asking the child, again, depending on their age, what their values are, and teach them what their values are. So give them examples. So instead of me just saying, these are our boundaries and forcing them on them, not that we don't need discipline and structure in the family system, but giving them an opportunity to be heard. And a lot of these kids are just not being heard, seen or valued. That's some of the biggest trauma that I see in my work, is that we don't know how to see, hear and value ourselves, which affects our self worth because we didn't get that. And you're talking about kids that have been maybe passed around or a little bit and they are dealing with a lot of trauma.
00:12:36.269 --> 00:13:27.682
And that's all they want to do is be seen, heard and valued. So this opportunity to sit down and say what is important to you, along with what is important in our family values, kind of lets them feel like they've got some autonomy, like they've got a say. And a lot of times kids don't feel like they have a say. And it's. It's going to be a slow process. This is something that goes over time, depending on how old they are, when, when you have them. And then, and even if it doesn't seem to be working out right away, it's a bigger picture. It's in the long run, they're developing these skills, and then as adults, we are able to see ourselves in a better light, you know, value ourselves, to develop some authenticity, to feel empowered and to be kinder to ourselves.
00:13:27.826 --> 00:13:36.539
So this is really a great foundation for young people to be able to learn at different ages how to set their own boundaries.
00:13:38.799 --> 00:14:03.629
I like that idea. I know that when I do ask them how they feel, it's so much easier to explain why I need what I need. This is important to you? Well, this is important to me, but if they see it from the perspective of it being about them, this is important to you. Therefore, here's me, too. This is important to me.
00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:12.470
Yeah. Can you elaborate on the importance of incorporating consequences into boundary setting and why that's important?
00:14:18.169 --> 00:14:21.905
Boundaries, meaning between you and another person, needs consequences.
00:14:22.018 --> 00:16:06.450
Interpersonal boundaries, like for me, like when I was talking about like having a certain bedtime or something, like brushing my teeth on a regular basis, I don't need to put consequences on it because if I in place, because I don't follow those, the consequences are going to show up, right? If I never brush my teeth, they're going to fall out. I don't need consequences. They're just going to be there. If I don't sleep properly, I'm going to start feeling good and have some health problems. So the consequences are going to be there. So those are interpersonal boundaries, the values that I have for myself. But when I'm talking about interpersonal boundaries, being with somebody else, we need consequences. So, for example, the boundary that you set based on your values, no matter, it could be something super strong. Like, I am not okay with this. If you are treating me and abusing me in a certain way, then I need to leave the relationship. That's a consequence right there. It has to match. If you're disrupting my sleep tonight and I say, I'm leaving this relationship. That doesn't make sense. That's just like way of a mismatch. Again, the consequences are up to you. That's why we start from the beginning. You don't just come up with consequences. You really sit with a boundary and as you put it in place, then you'll know what you need to do. You may need to ask for help to say, if this boundary gets crossed or I'm letting you cross this boundary, there has to be a consequence. If I don't put the consequence in place, reasonable, then I don't have a boundary anymore. The boundary doesn't exist. That's where people will come in and say, I don't know how to do this. I'm trying to set boundaries, but it's not working. People are crossing them well because there's no consequences.
00:16:06.950 --> 00:17:29.301
So without consequences in interpersonal relationships, boundaries really are very difficult to maintain. I hear from a lot of grandparents who are trying to help their grandchildren maintain relationships with their parents, and I experience it myself, where you tell your children, if you're going to be involved with your children from a distance and a parent says they're going to call and they don't call. Or I have experienced my son in law, when he was communicating with us, he would say, tell my daughter that I love her even though I can't call. And I'll say, you need to tell her that yourself. I'm not going to be the one that gets involved with explaining why you don't call, but that you still love her, even though I do explain that to her from my own perspective, I think it's not proper for us to be communicating messages back and forth that are personal. What do you think about that? I think that's great because you're expressing these are important values to you.
00:17:29.445 --> 00:18:14.039
You're encouraging them to communicate more directly with their children to maintain that connection. And it's important that that's how you see it. How is it that we see it and then we can share that with people, so then they can take that information and see whether they can integrate that in their situation. We don't always know what people's situations are, so maybe that fits, maybe it doesn't, but they're gathering information and they're like, okay, you know what? That's a good idea, because if I don't have those boundaries set in and I'm the one who's telling you that you love your daughter all the time, I'm getting angry. So one of the consequences of not having boundaries is being angry at somebody, especially somebody that we're supposed to love.
00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:21.107
And I don't want to be angry at the people that I love in my life because they're not respecting my boundaries.
00:18:21.243 --> 00:19:05.021
So that is an excellent way to not be angry at them, because you're setting a boundary and you're saying, look, it's not okay for me to deliver this message of compassion and love because it doesn't mean the same thing, and I'm not okay with that. Which emotions tend to impede the process of maintaining boundaries. That's a great chapter. So that's number four. The biggest one that comes in, there's several of them, is guilt. And I'll explain that a little bit. But there's also shame. I actually bookmarked that because that's one of the most popular questions I get. So there's guilt, there's shame, there's a feeling of helplessness.
00:19:05.086 --> 00:19:15.849
Like, we feel like we can't do this. You know, we just kind of feel like we don't have the strength or the confidence to set these boundaries and maintain them.
00:19:16.269 --> 00:20:44.339
This one isn't quite as comfortable for people to hear. But sometimes, if we're always blaming everything and everybody else for our life situation, so lacking accountability, that's a really, really tough one for people to hear and to own. And I understand that another thing is fear and worry. We may be afraid of that person. What do I do in that situation if I'm afraid of this person? And so that's something that may be a little bit longer term, you know, how do I work with it? So it might not just be walking the door and say, okay, this is the boundary, and here's the consequences. If there's fear related coming in there or we're worried about anything, we may need to have a longer term plan to be safe, especially if it's with someone who's abusing us. We can't just walk in and set a boundary because they may give us some severe consequences. But the main one in general is in all parts of our lives, if it's interpersonal relationships with our friends, family, colleagues, children, is guilt. And what guilt means is in this definition, that I am doing something wrong. I feel guilty because I'm doing something wrong. Part of us, if you look at two parts of us, one part of us says, God, I need boundaries. I know I need to set boundaries. And then there's the other part of us that says, I feel so bad when I do this, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. So those two things are conflicting inside of us.
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:51.430
But one of the things I want to remind us of is ask yourself this question, am I really doing something wrong?
00:20:52.130 --> 00:21:36.435
So it's not real guilt. Guilt is if I do something wrong and I did something like, I hit your car because I wasn't paying attention, then I feel bad because I did something wrong. And then I say, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, I made a mistake, or I missed an appointment. You're like, oh, my God, I feel so guilty. I wasted your time. I'm so sorry. So we make a repair. That's genuine guilt. But this kind of guilt is just getting in the way because it's not genuine, because you're not doing something wrong. And you have to remind yourself that you are doing something for the bigger picture of your life and your children's and your grandchildren's life. It's important look at the bigger picture, and that helps reduce some of the guilt that comes along with it.
00:21:36.468 --> 00:22:23.991
So that guilt is usually the number one thing that sabotages ourselves, sabotaging our boundaries. The other one that we'll briefly touch on is shame. Shame and guilt are kind of closely related. But shame looks a little bit more at like, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy of standing up for myself. I'm not worthy of being able to speak my mind. I'm not worthy of being my authentic self, because that is self worth is shame. So if my self worth needs to come up and work on that I'm worthwhile, then it's easier for saying, hey, you know what? I deserve this. I deserve to have a better life.
00:22:24.056 --> 00:22:27.728
I deserve to find some contentment. I deserve to find some peace.
00:22:27.864 --> 00:22:42.380
So I am going to set these boundaries, because then again, to remind everybody that the boundaries keep us from being frustrated and angry with the people that we're supposed to love. It takes away compassion.
00:22:42.680 --> 00:23:56.309
If I'm angry at you, and I love you like you're my mom and I love you, but I'm angry at you all the time for years. I don't want to feel that way towards you. So if I set the boundary, it allows for compassion, more love and compassion to come out to people. And so, in general, boundaries, we're feeling guilty about it, but it basically makes us more compassionate people. And all of us grandparents want to leave a better life for our grandchildren. These issues can oftentimes be generational. As women or as men, we've carried on the examples that our parents set for us and their grandparents set for them. So we're talking about improving our grandchildren's lives and making them better so that they don't repeat some of the things that they've grown up with, with their parents that have been unhealthy. Yeah, it's breaking the pattern. It takes courage to be the first person in your generation to break that pattern. Yes.
00:23:56.849 --> 00:24:04.099
Exciting, though, because I don't know any of those things that you just mentioned that anyone doesn't need to work on.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:34.968
Oh, we're all a work in progress. You know, here I am talking about the book and how to do this. Like, you know, I mean, it's something I talk about almost daily in my practice. I love it. But it doesn't mean that I'm not human, too, because one of the things we want to do is please people. We don't want to upset people. So the people, please God, it can come in and we're more worried about what you think about us than about our own well being. Sometimes, not always.
00:24:35.023 --> 00:25:56.359
And being kind to people isn't a weakness, but it makes us kinder genuinely if we can be able to put those boundaries. So even though I have boundaries, boundaries are. Some of them are set in concrete and will never change in my life. And some of them are flexible that are going to change as I change and develop or as I come into a different state age of my life. You know, if you come in from a young child to a teenager to a young adult, middle aged, older age, all of this stuff is going to change because we're changing. So that's the beauty of it, is to be able to really have that self worth, to be able to say, this is what I'm looking for. And everyone says, I just want to be happier. And what we're looking for is a type of contentment. And if we are frustrated with other people all the time, that's exhausting. I just don't want to spend my life being upset with people that are really important to me, especially my family and my close friends. So that allows me, with my boundaries to have very deep, intimate relationships with people that are important to me. And that's the beauty of boundaries. It's not pushing people away, it's allowing them to be in your life in a safe way.
00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:18.750
Just yesterday, I was speaking with my granddaughter about something, and as the words were coming out of my mouth, as I was trying to teach her about something I wanted her to learn, I remembered the exact same day I had been a bad example myself of what I was trying to teach.
00:26:19.049 --> 00:26:33.269
So I had to be transparent about it. I think it's important to let her know. Remember when grandma said this? I didn't do a very good job of this, so I need to learn about this, too. So we'll work on this together.
00:26:34.130 --> 00:26:37.910
Oh, and they feel valued, they feel heard, they feel seen.
00:26:38.490 --> 00:27:11.713
When you do such a thing, I love that you're doing that because it's called repair. So many adults that grew up in childhood drama are just looking for that repair that they may never get where the parent says, hey, look, I'm really sorry that I was this way, or I'm really sorry, but we're always looking for someone to acknowledge what they did. And you're talking, and it doesn't matter what scale it's on, you're talking, hey, remember what I did the other day? You know, that just wasn't right.
00:27:11.761 --> 00:27:29.698
And I'm going to acknowledge that that's a type of repair. Think about it, that we are going to damage our relationships sometimes. We are going to get angry, we are going to make mistakes, we are going to get frustrated, and we are going to regret it. But to work on that is important.
00:27:29.834 --> 00:27:51.756
But also to repair it is important. Even if it was something that I did ten years ago or something. If my child is 40 years old and is something I did when he was 18, I'm going to say, when you were 18, I just wasn't in my best state, and I just want to acknowledge that I'm sorry. And I tell you what, the emotions will come up and just people crave that.
00:27:51.827 --> 00:27:55.400
So that's a great. Doesn't matter when it happens.
00:27:55.700 --> 00:29:29.769
And it's a good way to model, like what you were saying before about having the courage to break that intergenerational pattern of behaviors. And for the person that comes to my practice, they're that person. Wow, does that take courage? They're coming into the office to make changes in their life, and it's scary, but they do it anyway because then all of a sudden, their behaviors start to change, and then they're becoming a better role model for their children, grandchildren, for anybody around them, because they're saying people are noticing they're changing, and then they're like, wow, this is great. And if I see that you can do this and you are making progress, no matter how difficult it is, it lets me believe in myself a little bit. It's like, wow, maybe I can do that, too. I've noticed with children, they look to adults as they're some kind of gods. They don't understand them. And they can listen to the words that we say. And we say, you need to not interrupt me when I'm speaking or something. They're nodding their heads because they're trying to learn and they want to be good, and they want to be rewarded for being good. And then they see us do the same thing ourselves and in their brains. I imagine it must be really confusing unless we're explaining, oh, see what I just did? That probably wasn't the right way to do that.
00:29:30.589 --> 00:29:48.490
We're modeling a neurological pattern as our brains are growing and learning. You mentioned in your book the benefits in terms of cognitive processes and developing neural pathways when we practice boundary setting.
00:29:48.789 --> 00:30:13.564
Can you talk about that a little bit? I know it might be a little technical, but for the listeners, absolutely. Whenever we are trying to change a behavior or a pattern that we have, it is not just flipping a switch. It takes practice every time. Like you said, you take a pause. Think of it like a pause, and you're like, whoa, I just told you not to do something.
00:30:13.652 --> 00:30:49.723
And then I just did it. You took a pause. That pause right there literally is what starts to change the neural connections in our brain, to switch the old ones off and start to turn some new ones on. And that takes practice over and over and over again. And every time that we notice, and it's all self observation is what we're talking about. So every time I noticed that I did a good job or I didn't like what I just said, or I don't like how I came across, or that doesn't seem like a good role model for you, or I really didn't hear what you had to say, I wasn't listening.
00:30:49.771 --> 00:30:56.352
I was having a bad day, and I got frustrated, and I really didn't hear it. Then you take that pause and you listen, right.
00:30:56.415 --> 00:31:22.352
Right then and there, it is a change that you are consciously making. And when you make that change over and over and over again, you're developing a new pattern of behavior. So we have to be very patient with ourselves. We are not going to get it right. Right off the bat. If we're breaking these patterns and behaviors that we've learned from many generations before us, we have to be kind.
00:31:22.455 --> 00:31:47.740
We've had that ingrained in us for so long. Long. We don't expect to change it overnight. So what comes in place here is self kindness. To be kind to yourself, as you're saying, whoa, wait a minute. I just noticed this. A lot of times, we judge ourselves and says, like, oh, my God, I can't believe I just did that. I just told my kid this, and then I did this. Look at me. I just can't get this right. That's not it.
00:31:47.779 --> 00:32:15.478
That's being cruel. That's judging yourself rather than sabotage exactly what it is. And rather than saying, wow, I just noticed that score. I just figured this out. Yes, I messed it up. Yes, I was wrong. Yes, that was not a good example. But I'm like, good for me. Yes, I did it. And then I'm being compassionate to myself and I'm encouraging myself, and then all of a sudden, the brain is literally starting to change.
00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:41.314
Those connections are starting to change. I've been working on some of my own work as far as having the confidence to set boundaries for many, many years and getting better and better at it. And now I look back at probably since writing the book and working with other people directly and indirectly, I'm like, wow, I'm getting really good at this. And people just think, well, this is so easy for you. I'm like, no, it's easier.
00:32:41.481 --> 00:32:45.263
And I have more confidence, and age has a lot to do with that.
00:32:45.402 --> 00:33:32.440
But I'm really proud of myself. That's what we're looking for, is to see that change. And it is so difficult because it takes so much self compassion, kindness, and patience. Think about recently, over the summer we had the Olympic games. You think these people just jump in the swimming pool and win the race? Think of the years and years and years and years of having to change their body and develop these repetitive patterns so they can put a lot of effort into it. It's the same thing with our practice. It is training. It's almost a practice. So if we want major changes, we have to be patient and we have to practice. And then when we do well and we notice something, we have to say, yeah, I'm on the right track.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:34:26.494
That's great. Can these neural pathways be changed after a child is three or five or eight years old or. Or 80? Absolutely. At any time, the brain, and I won't get into this part of it because it does get too technical. But there's a thing called neuroplasticity that means years and years ago, they believed that you got to a certain age and your brain was just set. That's how it is. But it's not true. Like you say, you can teach an old dog new tricks, but it may be easier for a younger child because their brain is more able to absorb information like a sponge. But it doesn't matter how old you are, we can always learn something new. Just because you've never done this before doesn't mean that you can't put some kind of an effort. So it does not matter how old you are. You can be an 80 year old person and decide to change. It is a decision.
00:34:26.581 --> 00:34:52.039
It is a conscious decision to make an effort to do this. It's just wonderful to not worry about how old you are, to be able to make changes. A lot of people will come in to my office and be like, well, I'm 50 years old. I wish I did this 30 years ago. But it doesn't matter. You're doing it now. That's what's really important. So absolutely, it does not matter how old you are, you can make these changes in your brain.
00:34:52.579 --> 00:35:02.679
I think about the grandparent who's raising a child that they might have gotten custody of at the age of five or six. In our case, our grandson was three.
00:35:03.420 --> 00:36:04.431
And issues that come up throughout their lives, and I can't understand why they don't conceive of a particular concept. But then I had this flash thought in my mind, as you were speaking, that when they're babies, before they understand things, they just sit and watch their parents. So they weren't held or they weren't spoken to or there weren't responses to their cries that these neural pathways that they've developed don't understand the concepts of what they have to do as an adult to get a healthy response out of another adult. So for grandparents, when we can understand where their parents came from and what these children saw, it maybe easier to model a particular behavior and then explain to them why.
00:36:04.615 --> 00:36:19.376
I know that it's difficult to do this because you didn't see this, but this is how we do it. Like playing a game. Here's the game we're going to play. We're going to call it boundary setting. And this is how this works.
00:36:19.487 --> 00:36:38.293
You make a move, I make a move. If we can visualize it to them, kids can begin to go, oh, this is a game that I have to play to get these kinds of results. Right. I can add to that is thinking of, we talk about trauma of children.
00:36:38.382 --> 00:37:12.034
All right, so like you were saying, they weren't hugged, they weren't soothed, they weren't rocked, their needs weren't attended to in a timely manner. And so when we think of trauma, we tend to think of what happened to people. They got beat or abused or something like that, or physically neglected and didn't get fed. But there's another way to add to looking at trauma. And what you didn't get, that's what you said, is like, what they're not getting. So trauma isn't only what happened to you, but it's what didn't happen to you.
00:37:12.161 --> 00:37:30.748
So that tends to haunt us and is harder to resolve. Never being held, never having that rocking, soothing, it's okay from the parent because they weren't capable of it for whatever reason. And it isn't necessarily that the parent was a bad parent. We're not looking at blame.
00:37:30.844 --> 00:37:52.106
It could be a parent that died, it could be both parents that all of a sudden you're a child, you have no control over it. And what happens, the younger they are, the worse it is to what happens to a young child because they don't have. Have the brain capacity, the development to understand the situation like an older child or an adult, is that their body remembers.
00:37:52.217 --> 00:38:25.074
They don't know how to relax. And the more early trauma there is, you'll see a lot more of this, and you'll see a lot more severe addictions with early childhood trauma, because the trauma is kept in the body. And even though we don't remember any of it, the body always remembers. And then all of a sudden, like, something will happen. You're 14 years old or 40 years old, and you have a really severe reaction to it. Like you got triggered in something and you're like, I have no idea what's going on. Your body remembers.
00:38:25.202 --> 00:38:58.411
There's this inability to self soothe, because if we aren't soothed, we don't know how to self soothe. So not only, Laura, what you're saying is about the game and explaining it to them a cognitive level. We also have to be aware of what's happening physically in our body because we don't know, because people will come in and I'll say, do you notice that this is happening in your body? What's going on physically? They're like, I don't know. I don't know. There becomes this huge detachment and avoidance of the self throughout the whole life.
00:38:58.556 --> 00:39:05.793
And I think that's one of the biggest causes of severe mental health problems, even just regular mental health problems, is avoiding ourselves.
00:39:05.922 --> 00:39:23.989
And if we don't know how to connect with ourselves because we weren't connected for whatever reason, we don't realize that there's a problem here. So it's a physical thing. What's happening to you right now? Do you notice that we're talking about this and, like, maybe how to connect with another human being in a healthy way?
00:39:24.610 --> 00:41:11.228
I can give you an example of a young woman, and that if you touch her forearm, and she's a lovely woman, I mean, everything, but she goes, if you touch my forearm, I'm just like. And that's, that's early, like, not being able to soothe. That's just, it's her body as a child reacting. Here's another example. If you're not familiar with this, if you've ever seen somebody yell at a dog, they cower. So that's what our bodies are doing, and we don't know this. So we're bringing awareness into the physical aspect of trauma and starting to reconnect with ourselves physically. And noticing that my stomach is really upset right now, or I got a heavy chest, my heart is racing, I've gone into a brain fog. And not running and avoiding that, but sitting with it and tolerating it and soothing it, soothing yourself and you're feeling that way. But what we do a lot of times is we find some kind of a coping, an unhealthy coping methods instead, like drinking, smoking, shopping, eating sugar. That's probably, you know, and we all have one, you know, I'm not anybody out. We all have some kind of a coping mechanism to deal with the inability to self soothe and sit with that discomfort. And the discomfort, which we're talking a lot about is understanding our thoughts and feelings, but also what's happening physically in our body. Key. That's the healing process right there. What basic techniques do you use to. Cope with those reactions? Or what do you teach your clients? I teach them while we're in session so I can say, this is what's happening, and then they can go home. But we do it right while it's happening. So you'll come in with a topic that's uncomfortable for you to talk about.
00:41:11.403 --> 00:42:17.648
And while you're talking about it, we're developing self awareness. Do number one is not breathing, is the anxiety will come up, so they'll come in. Especially, it's the first day. They've never met me. I'm a stranger. They're about to come in and talk about some really intimate stuff, and it's terrifying. And so we addressed that right off the bat, and I said, and we address the anxiety coming up. I don't work directly with children. I'll do some teenagers, but with the young children, I have a colleague that's right next to me that we work closely together, and what she does is a thing called play therapy with a child. You know, they don't trust you. There's a huge trust issue so they have to take good pediatric counselors to take a lot more time to build the trust. There's many great ways to do it. But my colleague Jessica, she does it with play therapy. She's got a huge playroom. So the kid comes in and they're like, wow, this is like, not a doctor's office. This is a playroom. And then all of a sudden, they use play to, in order to express themselves.
00:42:17.744 --> 00:42:28.815
When, especially at different ages, they use art, they use whatever they want to do, and that allows the child to be able to express themselves through play. That's how we do it with them.
00:42:28.847 --> 00:42:36.123
And then we can. Then if they say, do you feel anything in your body? And they're like, my tummy's upset. Well, does your tummy get upset?
00:42:36.251 --> 00:42:39.420
You know, when else does your tummy get upset? Can you tell me about that?
00:42:39.460 --> 00:42:56.800
So with adults, we can be more direct. With children, if we're too direct, they just aren't going to connect. So we have to be very patient and very indirect and do it through play, and it works phenomenally. One of my grandkids is in physical pain. Often.
00:42:58.579 --> 00:43:09.541
My granddaughter, when she hugs me, she'll just throw her arms around me, and it's really hard, and her head goes down. You know, it's not like a gentle, loving.
00:43:09.686 --> 00:43:20.369
And I talk to her and I say, that felt like a fearful hug. I said, can you give me a courageous hug?
00:43:20.949 --> 00:44:00.190
And then she'll show me, and it's very powerful. And she slowly hugs me and puts her face next to mine. I said, yes. That wasn't a shameful hug. That's lovely. I guess to give people resources, if they're looking for resources to act through play with their children or grandchildren or anybody, is to go look for someone who is certified as a play therapist, because a good play therapist, they work with a child. Mainly the child is the patient, but then they bring the family into it. So the family is able to do it through play, especially at the younger.
00:44:00.929 --> 00:45:18.820
So instead of saying, how do I go about using play to help help these young people that are so important in my life is that's what they do. You go to these sessions and they teach you how to do it. And it's such a phenomenal practice of play therapy. It's all over the country. In my area, it's pretty popular. My colleague Jessica Wilcox brings the parents in her process, and this is important when you're vetting people, is she meets with the parents first, sometimes together, sometimes separately. Her grandparents or whoever the caretakers are, I should say. And then she brings the children in and then she works as the family together. So it's kind of like, I think they call filial therapy. So they work the family as a unit. So it is important when you are doing therapy that at some point the parents or the caretakers come back in and learn what's going on. So if you are not, I mean, you know, most of her work is directly with the child, but if some, at some point, it is very important to bring the adult into the room so they can continue this as when they go home, so they know what's going on. Great. Thank you for that advice, Catherine. Where can our listeners find more information about you and your practices and your book?
00:45:19.239 --> 00:46:09.349
Well, thank you. My website is Catherine gcleveland.com. you can go anywhere to find my book. It's all over Amazon, anywhere where you buy books, barnes and nobles. You can even probably get it at the library. But it is a workbook. It's interactive, so you might want a copy of it so you can write in it on purpose. At Katherine G. Cleveland.com, we'll link you to my business website if that's something you're interested in learning more, which is clevelandemotionalhealth.com. so that's the best places. I'm all over social media. I will put that information in the show notes the four essential pillars of boundary setting. Thanks, Katherine. Thanks Laura. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today for another episode of grandparents raising grandchildren nurturing through adversity.
00:46:09.969 --> 00:47:36.710
I encourage you to share your challenges and your successes with us. Your story is undoubtedly one someone else needs to hear. You can submit your stories to the links provided in the podcast information. Your contributions will enrich the upcoming conversations, creating a more supportive community in which we can learn and grow together. If you enjoyed this show, please share it with a friend that needs to hear. And if you love the show and you're listening on a broadcasting platform like Apple or Spotify, just scroll down in your app and please leave us a review. Are you struggling to cope with the rollercoaster of life? I hope you'll join me next week with happiness expert Matt O'Neill in this transformative episode. Together, we'll discuss unveiling the secret to finding joy amidst life's challenges. Drawing on our own experiences from life threatening accidents, Matt emphasizes the power of gratitude and acceptance over victimhood, showing how these mindsets can unlock boundless energy and happiness. Discover how to break free from self imposed limitations and embrace life's ups and downs with a sense of spiritual purpose. We'll dive into practical strategies for managing stress through meditation, healthy living, and honoring what feels right for you.
00:47:37.130 --> 00:47:57.989
Learn how to take on challenges and addressing negative emotions can lead to nurturing self care and balance well being. Matt shares profound insights on overcoming shame and generational trauma, illustrating how emotional healing can create positive ripple effects for future generations.
00:47:59.050 --> 00:48:41.230
Tune in to uncover how to find happiness within regardless of your circumstances. We invite you to share your own stories of triumph and challenges, reminding us that happiness is not just a destination, it's a chosen path. Thank you for tuning in to grandparents, raising grandchildren. Nurturing through adversity remember, you are not alone. Together we can find strength and hope in the face of adversity. Peace be with you, and I pray. That you find some time this week to listen to your inner wisdom amongst the noise and the pandemonium of this world.
We respect your privacy and only use emails for early access to new episodes, exclusive content, and free giveaways.
Listen On
Support On
